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Debt or Harassement ?

Discussion in 'Other law subjects' started by Robert J, Aug 12, 2009.

  1. Robert J New law student

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    When does the legitimate pursuit of AO unpaid debt become harassment?

    Obviously, following someone around demanding it would be well beyond, but what about a constant barrage of threatening letters and phone calls?
  2. Bravo New law student

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    I've been wondering this myself. At what point do the constant phone calls become harassment? I mean, do they have a free license to call at 3:00 A.M. over and over and over?
  3. No6 Super Moderator

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    Question?

    What is the only single difference between an authorised lender and a predatory loan shark charging extortionate interest rates and engaging in aggressive and intimidating debt recover, and an authorise lender?

    Answer:

    A consumer credit licence!

    If I were to choose one area which is a paradigm of the gulf which exists between legal theory as taught in any University Law School and that which occurs outside in the real world, then one could not do better that to choose this one area of debt enforcement.

    English law is replete with statutory provisions, and codes of conduct designed to protect debtors from harassment. Unlawful harassment of a debtor, malicious communication, protection from harassment, withdrawal or non-renewal of a consumer credit licence etc ad nausium. No-one can criticise Parliament nor our courts from failing to protect the vulnerable - at least on paper!

    The difficulty is that regardless of what the law says, such rights and remedies are simply useless paper remedies without the ability to vindicate them before the court.

    Corporations simply ignore them with impunity since the poor have no access to legal aid, they are unable to afford the court fees to bring or defend an action and often, the sums are so small (in relative terms) that it is simply not worth the financial return for a contingency-fee lawyer to represent the individual being harassed by a creditor.

    Add to this a weak regulatory regime, an unwillingness by the enforcement agencies such as ‘cash-strapped local authority trading standards and an Office of Fair Trading who very rarely use the full range of powers available to them to remove consumer credit licences from anyone other than the odd small fry lender; and you have a situation in which for the poor at least, corporations may harass as much as they want to with little chance of any serious sanction for doing so.

    Those comfortably off, on the other hand may avail themselves of the law. An example is the recent case of Ferguson v British Gas Trading [2009] EWCA Civ 46.

    Lisa Ferguson was pursued by British Gas for money she did not owe. British Gas employed some fairly reprehensible tactics to secure payment, including threatening her with costs. Mrs Ferguson was fortunate enough to have a well paid job, a home with equity in it and savings allowing her access to the court to use section 1 Protection from Harassment Act 1997 The Court of Appeal deprecated the behaviour of British Gas. Sedley LJ was somewhat scathing at para 53 of his judgement when he said:

    “it ought not to be left to hardy individuals to put their savings and homes at risk by suing. The primary responsibility should rest upon local public authorities which possess the means and the statutory powers to bring alleged harassers, however impersonal and powerful, before the local justices.”

    Unfortuntely, we see little evidence that local authorities or trading standards intervening to bring corporations before the court. Indeed, in 2005 it was left to a young law student, Stephen Horne from Southampton University to single-handedly take on the Abbey National bank over unlawful bank charges using the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations 1999. It was only when he won his case and the media frenzy that followed it that embarassed the OFT sufficiently into bringing a test case against several powerful banks to determine whether the OFT had the right to set charges.

    What it illustrates more than anything else is that a powerful bank with expensive lawyers may simply ignore the law relating to contractual terms and use its deep pockets to defeat all but the most knowledgeable, determined, or those who are prepared to risk all to .vindicate their rights with little or no intervention from the agencies whose job it is to police the activities of those who would act unconscionably.

    Debt collection in this country is virtually beyond the reach of the law because those who need its protection are unable to access it to invoke the statutory protection the law provides.

    The activities of debt collecting agencies operating in the Kingdom was addressed by Channel 4 in their ‘Dispaches’ documentary programme Undercover Debt Collector” broadcast on 20 July 2009 and available to watch on ‘More 4’ until 19 August 2009.

    A recent ararticle from Johann Hari: Cruel and out of control: the new face of debt collecting is reported in The Independent 14 August 2009.

    Personal bankruptcy is often the last resort of the desparate. Once an order is made and published in the London Gazette and the Insolvency Service Website, the harassment usually ceases. However, even this remedy is beyond the reach of the impecunious since to obtain an order, the impecunious applicant must find the sum of £500 to pay for it!

    In answer to the question, a lawful and reasonable demand for debt ceases to become so once it enters the area of Harassment a term very widely defined in, for example the Protection from Harassment Act 1997 – if you are rich enough to access it or if you can find a contingency fee lawyer who can be bothered to take it on, but one thing is certain, there exists little practical protection available to the poor and vulnerable from predatory and aggressive agencies engaged in unlawful debt collecting.
  4. Mrs.Ward New law student

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    In the states we legal aid in which they sign up for and can use against the company which is harassing the person. There was a case last month where a lady was relieved of her debt and received $300usd payment from the company for "distress". It was really crazy.
  5. chast New law student

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    I have no idea where you reside but I do not know of anyone that has received phone calls that late before. Are most debt companies using those auto dialers to call their contact list from?
  6. Camilla New law student

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    I live in the US and have received phone calls as early as 7 am and as late as 10pm. Supposedly there is a law which states that there can be no sales calls or collection calls before 9am or after 9pm but who enforces that I don't know.
  7. Mrs.Ward New law student

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    I believe that this can be enforced by various laws in each state. When I was in collections the times varied by state and the companies local time zone. You should find the terms for your state and that information should help you to know.
  8. Adella New law student

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    Evidently, according to CNN, the Federal Trade Commission has received more complaints about debt collection agencies than any other industry in the last three years. Debt collectors can be a problem. I've read all kinds of horror stories about collectors incessantly calling family members, the workplace and even using rude language! I guess the point is that they annoy or intimidate you so much that you pay? However, you *can* send them a cease and desist letter but debt is so often sold here that you're often dealing with a different party than the original creditor. Perhaps the more the debt goes down the feeding chain, the more vulgar the attempts? They are not supposed to call before 8am and after 9am unless you ask them to.
  9. Adella New law student

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    Camilla, you can file a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission or contact the office of your state's attorney general.
  10. BReynolds New law student

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    It is ridiculous that she received any payment for her distress. I don't think they should be harassing people, but she wouldn't have been in that predicament in the first place had she paid the debt she owed!
  11. cpen New law student

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    So its okay to be harrassed if you owe debt?

    Really now, of any forum in the world, most law sites and members of them, understand debt. :D

    I have had my fair share as well, and not counting any schooling the worst was having to take over the responsibility for a funeral cost (lack of insurance, not aware at the time, filed the insurance, it came back bounced and no one knew until I had to cough up and take the adult route and pay for it myself).

    That means, since my bills were late I have a stamp that says its ok to harrass me. Have you ever received some of the calls these places are making? I get that they are doing their jobs, and I also get that most places use an automatic dialer (to avoid delays in calls from a call center dealing with thousands of bills overdue) but when a person is being called over a dozen times a day, that is a little messed up (to put it lightly). :mad:
  12. Padhumai New law student

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    The Collector must call with "purpose and intent". In most cases, the 'purpose' is to inform the debtor of the outstanding debt that is owed and the 'intent' is to bring the issue to an amicable resolution.The Collector must not engage in abusive tactics, profanity, intimidation, threats, illegal coercion or any other method which causes undue duress to the debtor, in attempting to collect past due money.

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